Zune the next to drop DRM?

After this morning's big announcement we had to head over to get the other guy's take on the news. Microsoft was happy to oblige and furnish us with the usual boilerplate PR quote, including a very interesting bit on the future direction of DRM in the Zune.

Microsoft's response, specifically regarding the Apple / EMI announcement:
"Consumers have indicated [having DRM free music] is important to them so Zune has been working with a variety of partners to head in this direction. [Emphasis ours] This is a time of transition for the music industry and Microsoft is committed to striking a balance between delivering the best consumer experience while still protecting the rights of the content owners."

Microsoft's general response with regard to DRM:
"Regardless of the outcome of DRM for music downloads, DRM technologies will still have a key role in enabling businesses involving digital content. Subscription music services are a good example – they use DRM to enable consumers to have unlimited access to literally millions of music tracks. Other areas include the delivery of high quality video content, such as movies. Our role continues to be to deliver flexible DRM technology that provides choice for the content owner in how they distribute their content and choice for the consumer so that they have access to a wide variety of high-quality content and ways to enjoy that content."

There you have it, ladies and gents. Microsoft is working behind the scenes to shake some of the DRM from the Zune.

[McGinley @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:34PM]

Even though Bill Gates started removing DRM first,Steve Jobs is still gonna get all the cred.Even though I suppose Jobs brought around the beginning of the end sooner than Bill did.

[Ignacio @ Apr 2nd 2007 7:56PM]

"Even though Bill Gates started removing DRM first,Steve Jobs is still gonna get all the cred."

What do you mean 'started removing'? He was among the first to acknowledge that consumers didn't like DRM sure, but he didn't take any actions in that direction. SJ on the other hand wrote an open letter not only saying "consumers don't like DRM' but 'we'd like to sell our music DRM free' and lots of people said it was a bluff. As it turns out, it wasn't.

[Leonard Nimrod @ Apr 2nd 2007 8:12PM]

McGinley, when did Gates "first start removing DRM"? I seem to have missed that.

[Aron Trimble @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:41PM]

It's good to see another M$ product following in the footsteps of Apple.

[Chappy @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:42PM]

I don't get it Ryan. How can you be so negative when EMI chooses to *remove* DRM (in the "not good enough" article below), and so positive when Microsoft states "Our role continues to be to deliver flexible DRM technology". They've *recommitted* to DRM, not made any claim about removing it. I want it gone, and EMI is leading the way.

[Ryan Block @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:52PM]

Where was I positive about it? I didn't say anything either way, just reported on what was stated. Granted, I didn't go into a rant, but I'm sure you people have had enough of my ranting today!

[LordJohnWhorfin @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:44PM]

They use DRM to enable consumers to have unlimited access to digital content? Since when did DRM "enable" anything? They're there to PREVENT, CONTROL and DISABLE. It always makes me laugh to see "DRM" and "ENABLE" in the same sentence. What a joker.

[anonymouspimp @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:50PM]

it would be pretty smart of MS to drop DRM as soon as possible. Unlimited WiFi sharing could get them some nice market share... they should take advantage of it NOW before Apple comes out with a new generation iPod with the same functionality as the Zune.

If they drop the DRM they should also put production of their next generation Zune in overdrive and get it on shelves by summer. If anyone has the resources to do this its MS.

I am no MS fanboy ... but someone needs to level the playing field for the sake of innovation and quality. Too many awesome players can't make it onto American shelves because of Apple's brand dominance.

[Austin @ Apr 2nd 2007 8:33PM]

I'm an Apple/iPod fan, and I agree. competition is never bad for the consumer. the worst that can happen is that it gives apple motivation to make their players better. however, I can't see this coming from a company like Microsoft, who has drug their feet on any issue involving DRM, and, in thier own words, "DRM technologies will still have a key role". microsoft doesn't get it. they don't know how to really truly innovate. what I'd like to see is one of these other companies like creative who make such great hardware to get a great interface and start adding features like wifi the RIGHT way. like I said, th worst that can happen for me is nothing because i already have an iPod, but it could eiher be godd enough for me to switch or be an added encouragement for apple to innovate. as for microsoft, they aren't in the innovation buisness and they never have been.

[dashiel @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:56PM]

you removed the "good start" line.

[dave @ Apr 2nd 2007 8:35PM]

Sure, you can call it "straight reporting," but if your response to the EMI-Apple announcement is so strongly and so personally riddled with antithesis to the idea of some movement forward, how can you expect to breezily say, "There you have it! M$ is working behind the scenes to eliminate DRM!"

I didn't care for your tone in the other commentary, but I happen to believe if you're going to play the role of nothing Apple does will ever be good enough, in the interest of fairness and honesty, you really ought to play it that way with M$.

I'm not a huge fan of yours or your site, but these two posts have convinced me that I'll eliminate your feed from my lists.

[Ryan Block @ Apr 2nd 2007 8:47PM]

Dave, you totally missed my point. I'm not going to rehash it, but you pretty clearly didn't understand that I think it's good news wrapped in an agenda. And yes, we're incredibly critical of Microsoft, Zune, etc. You think they were happy when I wrote this? http://www.engadget.com/2007/03/20/five-things-microsoft-needs-to-do-to-fix-the-zune/

But hey, if you didn't care for me or Engadget and now you're leaving over some silly post about Apple, I can't see what we could have done to keep you around in the first place.

[dunk @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:53PM]

so apple/emi actually dropping DRM ( http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/02/apple-and-emi-ditching-drm-is-good-but-its-not-good-enough/ ) is "not good enough", microsoft -- in typical fashion i might add -- claiming to be dropping DRM at some point in the future is "a good start"?

[Sasha S. @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:56PM]

LordJohnWhorfin, let me second that! Looks like PR bullshit coming from Microsoft is taken directly from the "1984" by G. Orwell:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Power
DRM enables

[Ryan Block @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:00PM]

Yeah, I accidentally posted right in the middle of making a snarky comment about how "a good start" for Microsoft would be standing up to the Universal per-Zune levy they're paying. Sorry for the confusion.

[Jim @ Apr 2nd 2007 5:56PM]

This is news? This is like asking the little old lady cowering behingd her door whether she heard the gunshots down the street.

[Rick @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:01PM]

PlaysForWhat?

[sadTad @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:04PM]

I hate to sound like an Apple apologist, but here goes:

Who cares!?! Seriously, it seems like Engadget, and the guy who isn't Kevin Rose on diggnation are the only zune fanboys out there. I have yet to see one 'in the wild', and this is in LA, where there's no lack of folks carrying an assortment of dmp's.

what about the Samsung response, or the Napster response... those who have more of a presence than the friggin zune.

[Shmoe @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:10PM]

Now if the Zune would just used Media Player instead of the crappy Zune software. That's one major drawback to the Zune, having to install another music software program on your computer, one that doesn't work well, when windows already has media player.

[michael @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:14PM]

Microsoft is copying Apple again. Whoopee.

[Kane @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:15PM]

Could this mean that MS will do away with the 3 Play/3 Day "drm lock" that it puts on songs transfered over its wifi feature. That would give the Zune's wifi transfer a bit more credibility than as it is currently.

[L. Williams @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:17PM]

Microsoft didn't weigh in at all (that I'm aware of) when Steve made his bold statement of being anti-DRM. Now that Steve has done all the "stick your neck out" thing and worked with EMI to actually get them to agree, now MS comes along and says "me too, me too--we were really working on this no-DRM thing too, honest!". Yak! I don't buy it. It's MS's PR boys trying to look good and cutting edge, and even consumer-centric. Spin.

[Adam A @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:40PM]

People just do not care about fact-checking anymore...

Bill Gates spoke out against DRM months before Jobs did.

Gates: http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/12/14/bill-gates-on-the-future-of-drm/
Jobs: http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughtsonmusic/

I know that makes it more difficult to rant on MS, which is probably why you didn't care to check in the first place.

[michael @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:19PM]

I don't understand why you people are being so negative about this. Who cares what company it is. The fact that companies are finally starting to realize how DRM hurts the consumer (and virtually everyone) and are now willing to try and stop it. It's a good thing. I don't care that Microsoft is just announcing this right after Apple did, it's the thought that counts. Plus, I myself am a Zune user, so it's a good thing for many people out there. Now we have the choice. I can buy a movie on iTunes and put it on my Zune, or I can find one of those hard to find tracks on Zune Marketplace and put it on my iPod. Either ways, it's all good in the end.

[Dragod @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:31PM]

Well, I hope so. I'd like to see more Zunes around rather than iPods. Atleast Zune is trying to offer some form of innovation. The clickwheel was innovative what, five years ago? I'd like to see some change. I decided to try something different, and I went with the Zune. And let me say, I'm quite happy with it. My friend bought a 20gb iPod, but I let him use my Zune every once in a while. His iPod is reaching the end of it's life and he is considering purchasing a Zune. I'm sure that if there were to be no more DRM and podcast and video support he would buy one as soon as his iPod were to give out. I honestly believe that if the Zune were to drop it's DRM then it would easily become the market leader for 30gb(and hopefully other) players.

[Ignacio @ Apr 2nd 2007 8:05PM]

"Well, I hope so. I'd like to see more Zunes around rather than iPods. Atleast Zune is trying to offer some form of innovation. The clickwheel was innovative what, five years ago? I'd like to see some change."

Like a multi-touch widescreen with coverflow perhaps? ;-) Inductive charging? (I know that's not so innovative, but neither is wireless if you can't use it)

[Dave Hunwick @ Apr 3rd 2007 11:21AM]

You sir are hallucinating! Mark my words the zune will NEVER take more than 10% market share.

[Cleverboy @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:36PM]

I'd be happy if Microsoft joins the party (or the "social") but I doubt it. Their entire SYSTEM is based on DRM. From the whole lame "squirting" feature, to the idea of "renting", to the whole infrastructure of DRM interoperability. Although some people aren't bright enough to catch it... by only supporting the "owning" of content, Apple has steadfastly insured its customers would never become confused when and if we moved to a DRM-free landscape. "Upgrade" your past tracks for short-change? Higher quality non-DRM albums for the same price as lower-quality DRM'd versions? Absolute sweetness.

Could Microsoft just fix that boiler plate onto its own system? Let's just say, the licensing and b2b marketing issues could easily become a mess if they attempt to reverse direction towards Apple to quickly. Estimating that half their online catalog will be DRM free by the end of the year, over 2.5 million tracks, is impressive. Microsoft... your serve.

Eh. Sucks to be them.

[Chris @ Apr 2nd 2007 7:30PM]

He spoke out againts it whilst bending over and agreeing to pay a tax to the music industry for every Zune sold. Meanwhile, Jobs spoke out against it, has never agreed to any such tax and managed to convince one of the big players to offer DRM free music.

[VL-Tone @ Apr 3rd 2007 11:22PM]

"People just do not care about fact-checking anymore...

Bill Gates spoke out against DRM months before Jobs did."

How about you do some fact-checking yourself?

Well before Gates, Jobs said in 2002: "If you legally acquire music, you need to have the right to manage it on all other devices that you own,"

http://www.macworld.com/news/2002/03/04/jobs/

Jobs also stated a while ago that piracy would always exist and that people would find ways to break DRM no matter what.

And while Bill Gates said something like "DRM is a pain for consumers", his main point was that the DRM system needed to be improved so that it would be easier to use, he never specifically said that music should be sold without DRM. Also, it wasn't a company stance, it was simply Bill speaking at a conference.

Jobs on the other hand, with the open letter, was very clear about the need to stop using DRM on music. And this letter was published on Apple's site as an official statement, linked from the front page.

If it was not for Apple releasing the iPod and having a success with it, WMA would've become the standard everywhere, and the RIAA would've probably already phased out standard un-DRMed CDs, to replace them with WMA-DRMed only CDs.

Then, people and government couldn't complain about interoperability problems, since all players sold would be able to play DRMed WMA. The Zune wouldn't even exist.

Maybe Linux and Mac users would be angry about the lack of support for WMA, but you know what happen when they complain about the lack of compatibility with their OS? They get ridiculed for having a small market-share and being irrelevant.

At best, MS would've been forced to release a Linux and Mac version of WMP, but the DRM would have remained.

[shimman @ Apr 2nd 2007 6:44PM]

oh yeah? i don't believe you ms; my zune is a virtually super expensive radio because my win2k pro pc cannot even run zune software & zune software won't recognize my zune on my winxp laptop.

i cannot even use my zune as an usb hdd, and ms is talking about removing drm? BS! what's next drm free sony?

[hchute @ Apr 2nd 2007 7:00PM]

Apple had a lot to do with setting up widespread DRM in the first place - and I'm sure had no choice but to do so. It's fitting that they're taking the lead in dismantling it.

This is a very good trend - for iPod, Zune, and for music lovers everywhere.

Harvey
(Editor, Zunerama)

[mike @ Apr 2nd 2007 7:09PM]

I don't understand why you people are being so negative about this. Who cares what company it is.

--

Oh so.. now it doesn't matter that Apple made the anti-DRM push, even though they could have done just fine by sitting there with the monopoly in digital music, sellin a zillion iPods a year.
And since MS basically paid a royalty to the labels to make up for all the thieving its customers would undoubtedly get up to, MS had just as much to do with the anti-DRM thing.

Kiss my ass. SJ had the balls to put out the anti-DRM letter and MS sank back into the shadows (best light for looking at the Zune) and made friends with the labels, basically reinforcing ridiculous DRM protections (three days, three plays??)

Stop painting the whole industry with the same brush, there's Apple, and the mediocrity that follows months, or years later in the "PC" market...

Oh well, at least Bill Gates is serving the poorest kids in the world, if Ballmer isn't lifting a finger to help out his company.

[Jared Stander @ Apr 2nd 2007 7:15PM]

Linux. 'Out of the box', we don't even have an MP3 codec. Or an AAC one. But we do have OGG, and thankfully a list of manufacturers like Samsung (limited models), iAudion / Cowon, and iRiver that support our always-free digital music format and mass-storage connection so we can use it on our OS. iAudio especially is amazing about including everyone in the digital music scene by including FLAC support.

Apple and M$ may decide to remove DRM. If they did, I have to say that would be amazing, even impressive. But that by no means says we also have to keep it if they decide to. There is always an alternative. If you really hate DRM that much, try looking for it.

[John Doe @ Apr 3rd 2007 12:00AM]

Chris I hate to rain on your little apple fest but most sites are reporting that EMI came to Apple. Apple didn't come to EMI.
http://www.macrumors.com/2007/04/02/behind-the-apple-emi-deal/

I know that Jobs is your personal hero and you fantasize about him in the shower but the dude isn't God, and he didn't start this backlash against DRM. This is a direct result of P2P and the unstoppable force that it is.

[blipster @ Apr 2nd 2007 7:32PM]

DRM will continue to go hand and hand with subscription music services. So yeah, you can get rid of it for single download tracks, but that doesn't mean that DRM will be gone for good.

[Jeff @ Apr 2nd 2007 7:41PM]

EMI never said the DRM-free tracks would be exclusive to iTunes, just that they'd be the first. In fact, they even said the format choice (mp3, aac, etc.) would be up to the retailer and consumer.

So MS could ditch the DRM on EMI tracks just like Apple did. It's MS's choice one way or another; the only surprising thing would be if they *don't* do it, and from the quote above, it sounds like they're telling their customers to buy non-DRM tracks elsewhere (as in "partners", meaning other music stores). Smart.

[BJ Nemeth @ Apr 2nd 2007 8:10PM]

Bill Gates commented that the *current* state of DRM was unworkable. His comments weren't really anti-DRM as much as they were about finding a better model for making it work. All of Microsoft's official comments talk about how DRM "enables" consumers to enjoy content in different ways.

That is *not* anti-DRM.

[Peter @ Apr 2nd 2007 8:47PM]

Setting the record straight:

Bill Gates commented that "current drm" had problems, he was talking mainly about Apple DRM that was the market leader. His remake was about ripping CD's because he would rather have you rip a CD than buy from a competitor. But even then he was pushing Better DRM.

Jobs said he would be Happy to ditch DRM.

The official MS response to Jobs Letter, was that it was a ridiculous statement and DRM was a necessary enabler. Anyone have a link?

Now Jobs will be the first to deliver and MS is scrambling out a me too...

Who cares about Zune. I agree with others. I have never seen anyone with a a Zune anywhere.

[KenC @ Apr 2nd 2007 9:07PM]

AdamA, Steve Jobs is on the record as being opposed to DRM way back in 2003, in a Rolling Stone interview. Let's get the facts straight, right?

[crescentdavid @ Apr 2nd 2007 9:11PM]

I hate to cloud the issue with facts, but the fanboys might want to check out EMI's last public announcement in which THEY (not Apple nor anyone else), claim responsibility for the movement forward in getting rid of DRM. They also say it'll be available to MULTIPLE VENDORS in multiple formats at multiple levels of fidelity.

I know it's soothing to a certain number of people to uncritically embrase and support the outsourcing corporation of their choice, but hey ... a few facts shouldn't hurt anyone.

[jbelkin @ Apr 2nd 2007 9:24PM]

MS does NOT want to drop DRM as ENGADGET points in the last line,

"Our role continues to be to deliver flexible DRM technology that provides choice for the content owner in how they distribute their content and choice for the consumer so that they have access to a wide variety of high-quality content and ways to enjoy that content."

After all, they have servers to sell - Apple on the other hand is all about consumers - delivering what people actually want ... Zune even ADDS DRM where no one asks it to ... MS is continuing to flog this dead dog - a DAP player that seems to average ONE sale per store but they'll keep throwing good money at a market they cannot even beat out other WMA players.

[The Aggie CEO™ @ Apr 2nd 2007 10:10PM]

I dont give a damn.........

why??

My Music is free..........lol......

no not all was downloaded.........

I have gotten over 600+ CDs and simply ripped them to my server..........well over 20,000 Songs............

DRM wont affect me for years to come I'd say

[pgl @ Apr 2nd 2007 11:35PM]

Support Flac and I will buy, end of story.

[Bloobie @ Apr 2nd 2007 11:57PM]

Why would they support FLAC over their own WMA Lossless? Oh wait... the Zune device does not support lossless audio at all. (Although the Zune software will convert it for you before syncing). ;)

[John Doe @ Apr 2nd 2007 11:55PM]

"There you have it, ladies and gents. Microsoft is working behind the scenes to shake some of the DRM from the Zune."

How naive can you get? Of course MS is going to response with such a statement. What? You think they are going to come out with "Hey we are trying to catch up with Apple and will lick the RIAA's balls to do it. If they want strong DRM we'll give it to em. If they want no DRM we'll give it to em. If they want us to poll dance naked at the next RIAA board meeting...oh yah we are so there."

So of course MS is going to respond with "we are working on it." Its the standard line because its impossible to verify. As for Apple's offering. Since everyone and their mother is already at 256kb/s the only thing of interest today is no DRM. And that is coming in at a cost of 30 cents more. For the "premium" track. Color me unimpressed. We are now paying more for no DRM. Joy. What a wonderful tradeoff.
And from the reports on many of the Mac sites it appears that Apple is the one who set the price not EMI. So once again Apple users are paying the Apple fee for..for. Well for a fully functional music ecosystem. *coughs*Draft-N*coughs* Seriously Apple is turning into Microsoft. I would really like to see someone slap the shit out of this company because its obvious that Apple thinks they can do no wrong.

[NewType @ Apr 3rd 2007 2:50AM]

@John Doe

Well, I guess you didn't read the transcript of the press conference. I quote:

Q: It's a pretty radical step, Eric. How did you reach the decision to do it? Was it Steve Jobs' letter that convinced you? Was it the internal surveys you've done? What was the moment in which you said, "Damn it, we're gonna go DRM-free?" And will the extra sales be enough to compensate for the declining physical sales?

[Eric Nicoli]: We've always known Steve's view on the subject, [b]long before his open letter.[/b] It was driven by the fact that we have the consumer at the center of our strategy.

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2624

So basically, EMI at least knew how Steve Jobs felt about DRM for a long time. The open letter, it looks like, was Jobs' invitation for the labels to come to him if they wanted to talk seriously about dropping DRM. So the fact that EMI approached Apple doesn't contradict the idea that Jobs has been plotting for years to get rid of the DRM.

It's kinda interesting how people are ready to rain on what can only be a good thing in the end. Then again, we see a lot of the same kind of "reasoning" from various execs when trying to explain away the iPod's success. "Oh, it's just Apple and marketing" or "Oh, it's because they cheat" or "Oh it's just a fluke."

How about the idea that Jobs simply understands the consumer mindset and does mostly the right thing and plays all his cards right?

[Marian @ Apr 3rd 2007 3:11AM]

But who cares?

Both zoon users?

[Piot @ Apr 3rd 2007 7:34AM]

Is this how Microsoft works behind the scenes?

quote -
Jason Reindorp, marketing director for Microsoft's Zune unit, said that Jobs' call for the "abolition" of DRM without any apparent consideration of the complex balance between what consumers want versus the rights of the content owners "seems to be kind of irresponsible"
- endquote

[keith waddington @ Apr 3rd 2007 9:06AM]

Piot: I think that was a pretty good checkmate and should end this thread nicely. well done!

waddo
http://www.waddo.net/